WARNING: PokerTracker
Basically the problem was with the only company advertising on PokerTracker.com ... IDLE MINER a service that sell Hand Histories (datamining) .. I thought it was sad that pokerroms reccommend this software (ask support they mention PT 99% of the time when you talk software) .. PT also it self will not let you track hands you havent played in unless you bought on of these services... So lets think about this...
Pokerroms say No to datamining..
Pokertracker doesn't allow you to monitor hands you haven't played in.. However it allows you to upload mass hands that are purchased.. Then they advertise on their site about these services and products to buy. Which helps the sale of IDLE MINER service & PokerTracker Service .. so we have PT aiding and profiting off software that violates pokerrooms.... Now i confronted Pokertracker via email over this situation..
here was the first response from the owner of PT (Derek aka A10perfect)
Quote:
Message left on Oct 3, 2010 6:21AM
Hello,
I appreciate your feedback and respect your opinion.
IdleMiner is not our company and is a third party company which has purchased advertising on our website. To my knowledge, IdleMiner has not been prohibited from any poker sites/networks. If they were then we would not allow them to purchase advertising from our company.
We receive a lot of requests from hand history companies (where you purchase hands) to advertise on our site and we reject them all since that is explicitly prohibited by the sites.
We are not in the business of determining what should and should not be allowed; instead, we strictly follow and adhere to the poker sites rules. If IdleMiner were to be prohibited software then we would not allow their company to advertise on our site.
I hope that you understand our position and may possibly change your mind about PokerTracker.
Best regards,
Derek
APerfect10 [PokerTracker Support]
So there i felt he was just brushing me off hoping it ended there (he doesn't know me well lol) So i figured i email stars support over the years they have always toldme pokertracker.. so i figure they would want to know if they a reccommding a piece of software that violates thier rules... So here is Pokerstars Security response..
Quote:
"Thank you for your report of this situation.
We agree with you, it isn't smart to be referring players to a website/poker
application that although is permitted by itself, links to prohibited services.
As such, I've contacted the people behind PokerTracker and are asking them
to remove such advertisements. If this is not possible, we won't refer
players to the website any longer.
If you have any further concerns, please don't hesitate to contact us again.
Regards,
Jackson
PokerStars Game Security"
So seeing that Pstars agree with me i replied back PokerTracker's owner (Derek)
and shared the above response from Stars and it seemed like his toned changed about the ads, but he wasnt being 100% honest I feel.. here is his response
Quote:
I was not aware that IdleMiner was advocating buying hand histories on their site. They previously did not do this and must be a recent change. I appreciate you brining this to our attention and we will give IdleMiner the ultimatum of either removing the recommendation on their site to purchase hand histories or discontinuing their advertising on our site as we will not be linked to illegal software or services.
Best regards,
Derek
Message left on Oct 3, 2010 6:49PM
PS. We have suspended their advertising on the PokerTracker website until they remove the illegal services from their site.
He took the ads down , but he says he wasn't aware, i find this very hard to believe and I have caught the guy in a few lies already, (hes not very good at bluffing :) lol ) You would have to be an idiot not to know... Example: the ads say "EXPLODE YOUR POKERTRACKER DATABASE" Not only that the name is IDLE MINER ... name speaks for it self. Then he states this a most recent change.... Well i searched 2+2 forums and i seen back in 2006 this was from Idle Miner team
Quote:
"IdleMiner FTP - Beta
#7733986 - 10/19/06 10:17 PM
We are pleased to announce that we are conducting an open beta test of IdleMiner Full Tilt Poker. If you are new to using IdleMiner here are some of the products features:
Functions as a screensaver, completely hands off!
Datamines the following games: Texas Hold'em, Omaha Hi and Omaha Hi-Lo, 7 Card Stud and 7 Card Stud Hi-Lo, Razz
Datamines all cash games, limit, no-limit, pot-limit
Supports 1 table S&G tournaments.
Automatically opens Poker Tracker (including Poker Tracker Omaha and Poker Tracker Stud) and starts the hand importing process.
Completely customizable, you can specify:
-Which limit(s) to datamine
-What format tables to datamine (Full ring or 6 max)
-How many tables of each limit to keep open, or even let IdleMiner determine how many to open for you!
-Give priority to some limits, so your main game will always be datamined first!
-The minimum number of players a table must have in order to stay open
Automatically closes tables that drop below the specified minimum number of players and opens new tables to replace them!
Conveniently statistics on the number of hands saved, how fast hands are being saved, and how long IdleMiner has been running
Includes a manual operation mode that allows you to manually open and close tables, or even use IdleMiner while playing and it will continue to save hands in the background!
If you would like to participate in the beta testing of IdleMiner FTP please go to
http://www.idleminer.com to download the beta software.
Thank you to everyone in the 2+2 community for helping us test our software, we could not do it without you.
Good Luck,
IdleMiner Team
So as you see back in 2006 there were datamining, i dont think they had Ads up then on PT.. So i email Derek(PT owner) that post in 2+2 forums.i asked why lie about the situation.. he replys with the following
Quote:
Message left on Oct 5, 2010 8:10AM
Hello,
You are absolutely incorrect. Yes, we did accept advertising from IdleMiner as their software was and continues to be allowed by the poker sites. I never refuted that. We do not make the judgments on what is and is not allowed therefore if it is allowed software (which IdleMiner is) then we allow them to advertise on our site. If the software/service is prohibited then we do not allow them to advertise.
However, what we were not aware of is that they were promoting purchasing hand histories on their website which is not allowed by the poker sites. This was only recently added to their website after they purchased advertising from us. We verify the sites when they purchase advertising but we do not monitor it daily. It turns out that IdleMiner recently sold their company to PokerTableRatings and this was never made aware to us. Once PokerTableRatings purchased IdleMiner, they put up these buy hand history ads on the site. Once again, we were never notified of this and the first that I heard about it was when you submitted your message at which point, I immediately pulled their advertising on our site.
I spoke with the CEO of the parent company of IdleMiner yesterday and notified him that we could no longer accept advertising from his site and that I had to refund his remaining advertising dollars which was pre-purchased. This was the point at which he notified me that the IdleMiner products and site were sold to PokerTableRatings.
Neither IdleMiner, the parent company of IdleMiner or PokerTableRatings has any relation with PokerTracker. PokerTracker Software, LLC. is an independently owned and operated company which has no parent, sister or child companies. I am sure if you contact PokerTableRatings that they can confirm that they recently purchased IdleMiner and have absolutely no relationship with us (PokerTracker). I have never even spoken with anyone from PokerTableRatings.
I appreciate a good conspiracy theory but this one is just inaccurate and wrong. As the owner of PokerTracker, I pride ourself on our clean reputation which is why as soon as I was made aware of this, I immediately pulled all of their advertising from our website.
Best regards,
Derek Charles, Member
PokerTracker Software, LLC
APerfect10 [PokerTracker Support]
Pokerroms say No to datamining..
Pokertracker doesn't allow you to monitor hands you haven't played in.. However it allows you to upload mass hands that are purchased.. Then they advertise on their site about these services and products to buy. Which helps the sale of IDLE MINER service & PokerTracker Service .. so we have PT aiding and profiting off software that violates pokerrooms.... Now i confronted Pokertracker via email over this situation..
here was the first response from the owner of PT (Derek aka A10perfect)
Quote:
Message left on Oct 3, 2010 6:21AM
Hello,
I appreciate your feedback and respect your opinion.
IdleMiner is not our company and is a third party company which has purchased advertising on our website. To my knowledge, IdleMiner has not been prohibited from any poker sites/networks. If they were then we would not allow them to purchase advertising from our company.
We receive a lot of requests from hand history companies (where you purchase hands) to advertise on our site and we reject them all since that is explicitly prohibited by the sites.
We are not in the business of determining what should and should not be allowed; instead, we strictly follow and adhere to the poker sites rules. If IdleMiner were to be prohibited software then we would not allow their company to advertise on our site.
I hope that you understand our position and may possibly change your mind about PokerTracker.
Best regards,
Derek
APerfect10 [PokerTracker Support]
So there i felt he was just brushing me off hoping it ended there (he doesn't know me well lol) So i figured i email stars support over the years they have always toldme pokertracker.. so i figure they would want to know if they a reccommding a piece of software that violates thier rules... So here is Pokerstars Security response..
Quote:
"Thank you for your report of this situation.
We agree with you, it isn't smart to be referring players to a website/poker
application that although is permitted by itself, links to prohibited services.
As such, I've contacted the people behind PokerTracker and are asking them
to remove such advertisements. If this is not possible, we won't refer
players to the website any longer.
If you have any further concerns, please don't hesitate to contact us again.
Regards,
Jackson
PokerStars Game Security"
So seeing that Pstars agree with me i replied back PokerTracker's owner (Derek)
and shared the above response from Stars and it seemed like his toned changed about the ads, but he wasnt being 100% honest I feel.. here is his response
Quote:
I was not aware that IdleMiner was advocating buying hand histories on their site. They previously did not do this and must be a recent change. I appreciate you brining this to our attention and we will give IdleMiner the ultimatum of either removing the recommendation on their site to purchase hand histories or discontinuing their advertising on our site as we will not be linked to illegal software or services.
Best regards,
Derek
Message left on Oct 3, 2010 6:49PM
PS. We have suspended their advertising on the PokerTracker website until they remove the illegal services from their site.
He took the ads down , but he says he wasn't aware, i find this very hard to believe and I have caught the guy in a few lies already, (hes not very good at bluffing :) lol ) You would have to be an idiot not to know... Example: the ads say "EXPLODE YOUR POKERTRACKER DATABASE" Not only that the name is IDLE MINER ... name speaks for it self. Then he states this a most recent change.... Well i searched 2+2 forums and i seen back in 2006 this was from Idle Miner team
Quote:
"IdleMiner FTP - Beta
#7733986 - 10/19/06 10:17 PM
We are pleased to announce that we are conducting an open beta test of IdleMiner Full Tilt Poker. If you are new to using IdleMiner here are some of the products features:
Functions as a screensaver, completely hands off!
Datamines the following games: Texas Hold'em, Omaha Hi and Omaha Hi-Lo, 7 Card Stud and 7 Card Stud Hi-Lo, Razz
Datamines all cash games, limit, no-limit, pot-limit
Supports 1 table S&G tournaments.
Automatically opens Poker Tracker (including Poker Tracker Omaha and Poker Tracker Stud) and starts the hand importing process.
Completely customizable, you can specify:
-Which limit(s) to datamine
-What format tables to datamine (Full ring or 6 max)
-How many tables of each limit to keep open, or even let IdleMiner determine how many to open for you!
-Give priority to some limits, so your main game will always be datamined first!
-The minimum number of players a table must have in order to stay open
Automatically closes tables that drop below the specified minimum number of players and opens new tables to replace them!
Conveniently statistics on the number of hands saved, how fast hands are being saved, and how long IdleMiner has been running
Includes a manual operation mode that allows you to manually open and close tables, or even use IdleMiner while playing and it will continue to save hands in the background!
If you would like to participate in the beta testing of IdleMiner FTP please go to
http://www.idleminer.com to download the beta software.
Thank you to everyone in the 2+2 community for helping us test our software, we could not do it without you.
Good Luck,
IdleMiner Team
So as you see back in 2006 there were datamining, i dont think they had Ads up then on PT.. So i email Derek(PT owner) that post in 2+2 forums.i asked why lie about the situation.. he replys with the following
Quote:
Message left on Oct 5, 2010 8:10AM
Hello,
You are absolutely incorrect. Yes, we did accept advertising from IdleMiner as their software was and continues to be allowed by the poker sites. I never refuted that. We do not make the judgments on what is and is not allowed therefore if it is allowed software (which IdleMiner is) then we allow them to advertise on our site. If the software/service is prohibited then we do not allow them to advertise.
However, what we were not aware of is that they were promoting purchasing hand histories on their website which is not allowed by the poker sites. This was only recently added to their website after they purchased advertising from us. We verify the sites when they purchase advertising but we do not monitor it daily. It turns out that IdleMiner recently sold their company to PokerTableRatings and this was never made aware to us. Once PokerTableRatings purchased IdleMiner, they put up these buy hand history ads on the site. Once again, we were never notified of this and the first that I heard about it was when you submitted your message at which point, I immediately pulled their advertising on our site.
I spoke with the CEO of the parent company of IdleMiner yesterday and notified him that we could no longer accept advertising from his site and that I had to refund his remaining advertising dollars which was pre-purchased. This was the point at which he notified me that the IdleMiner products and site were sold to PokerTableRatings.
Neither IdleMiner, the parent company of IdleMiner or PokerTableRatings has any relation with PokerTracker. PokerTracker Software, LLC. is an independently owned and operated company which has no parent, sister or child companies. I am sure if you contact PokerTableRatings that they can confirm that they recently purchased IdleMiner and have absolutely no relationship with us (PokerTracker). I have never even spoken with anyone from PokerTableRatings.
I appreciate a good conspiracy theory but this one is just inaccurate and wrong. As the owner of PokerTracker, I pride ourself on our clean reputation which is why as soon as I was made aware of this, I immediately pulled all of their advertising from our website.
Best regards,
Derek Charles, Member
PokerTracker Software, LLC
APerfect10 [PokerTracker Support]
Tags: PokerTracker, Warning, of, pratices.., unethical
Views: 10
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brandon on -
So he says it can be used at any site. Stars says no, waiting on Full Tilt slow email.. but i know datamining isnt allowed on both... So with common sense i can say its not allowed...
He stated it was a recent change and he just learned that PokertableRatings bought/aquired Idle Miner.. So i email PTR asking this and they say the following
Quote:
"Hello Brandon,
Thank you for contacting Poker Table Ratings.
No, we are not part of Idleminer. If you need to reach them, you can contact their support from their website at http://www.idleminer.com.
If you have additional questions, please contact us anytime. Our team is dedicated to answering your questions as soon as possible.
Sincerely,
Poker Table Ratings Support
http://www.pokertableratings.com"
So another thing doesn't add up with me, The CEO of the parent company of IDLE MINER informed Derek that Idle miner was sold to PTR ... So why would he refund the money to
him if PTR bought it i think PTR would get the refund... If you sell the company all assets go with including advertisng... so that makes Zero sence.. he states Idle Miner just started selling HH.. My question to him and this is where his responses have stopped..
WHAT WAS IT THAT IDLE MINER DID WHEN YOU LET THEM ADVETISE ON THE SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE? because from my research I can only find thats all they did..
Basically Pokertracker did this for the AD money and think about it IDLE MINER SELLS GOOD POKERTRACKER SELLS EVEN BETTER, so there is alot to gain until someone blows the whistle and they can play dumb.. but as you can see dont give up to easy....
So do you guys/gals think theres a foul here? i think Pokertracker is disgracing the game for some extra $$$.. and for you people buying the services such as idle miner.. PM ill teach you how to play the proper way... Can you take your pokertracker and your Idle miner to the real felt.. NO so why use it at all.................... software is disgracing the game.. track your own play if any... And why should we sit back and let our play make profits for people DISGRACING the game..
Some may disagree with me but i think Pokertracker needs to be moved to the PROHIBITED software list until they figure out a way their program can't be used to load HH you didnt play in....
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Permalink Reply by JTodd on -
Certainly is an interesting read. I am sure many poker players (and non-poker players) could have some very strong opinions on this. Nothing in this industry surprises me anymore.
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Permalink Reply by Brandon on
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Yea sorry its so long and weird formatted but have typed in several forums have to start CC&P it everywhere and sometimes it turns out like that :) ...
If i had my way and/or i was pokerstars i would move Pokertracker to the prohibited sites list until they took measures for there software not be used in helping dataming services.. but i also think stars and the pokerrooms could do better themselves as well...
Funny that Pokertracker software wont let you observe hands while it open and your not playing.. they dont want that.. THEY want you to buy from there partners and then you can load as many as you want... Sad...
I think us players need to start a group, where we can fight these issues as a group...
Any chance of Informing your audience on Perspective weekly, of the ads Pokertracker had up? (yes they since removed them, but they act like they didnt know when they infact did and derek has told me several lies.. no worries if you cant... i just think the poker community needs to know that one of its most popular software tools is more about the $$$ then holding up the intergity of the game
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Permalink Reply by JTodd on
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I will have my bosses take a look at this once they return from Budapest =0)
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Permalink Reply by Brandon on
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Thanks JTodd Hopefully you guys can do a short piece on this.. if you have ANY question at all reply here or PM here...
here is some more info that i feel may show the light better..
From Tilt Prohibited Software Page
Quote:
Not Permitted Under Any Circumstances
The following classes of programs are unconditionally prohibited:
2. Shared hand history databases and "data mining" software, including subscription services and the exchange of personal databases:
The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage. Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.
Players are not permitted to use the hand histories for hands that they have not personally participated in. Software designed to collect hand history information from games that the player did not participate in is prohibited. Some specific examples include:
Poker Edge
Poker Crusher
SpadeEye
IdleMiner
HandHQ
community shared hand histories
exchanging hand histories with a friend
Quote:
Currently Allowed for Normal Use
2. Programs for managing and analyzing personal hand history databases:
Programs used to manage and analyze hand history information from games a player has personally participated in are permitted, provided that they do not access shared hand histories. Specific examples include:
Poker Tracker
Poker Academy Prospector
Holdem Manager
Poker Office"
Just a few FACTS to throw out there
First reported to PT about the ads on Oct 1, 2010 12:33PM:
So keep in mind he had 5 days to look over the rules when myself and Pokerstars had informed them.. yet he still don't the rules or refuses to admit there was wrong doing..
Quote: Message from Derek at PT
Message left on Oct 5, 2010 08:10AM:
Hello,
You are absolutely incorrect. Yes, we did accept advertising from IdleMiner as their software was and continues to be allowed by the poker sites. I never refuted that. We do not make the judgments on what is and is not allowed therefore if it is allowed software (which IdleMiner is) then we allow them to advertise on our site. If the software/service is prohibited then we do not allow them to advertise.
Now above shows they are not allowed, even thought he keeps telling me they are..
In fact Tilt says its okay to use PT only if you aren't using datamining services.
I wonder what the poker community and Full Tilt would feel about what Poker Tracker was doing!!! Full Tilt Would punish a player, could even ban a player...
But PT take takes the ads off and all goes away.. Im not giving up that easy..
You think accepted poker software everyone think PokerTracker.. its a slap in the face to ever player out there who is playing by the rules.
Pokertracker AIDING AND PROFTING over this..
What i personally would like to see ESECIALLY since you were Aiding and profiting..
POKERTRACKER make changes to software where mass HH your not involved in can be loaded..
funny the software wont let you sit(observe) and gather hand data, so why should it let you upload mass amounts of data that isnt yours...
Pokertracker could help in this figth of datamining but as you can see those choose to take the other road and profit from it...
I wish i had the info on ads themselve like how many people have clicked the ad and bought...
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Permalink Reply by Brandon on
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This will be my final message and I am not going to entertain you further by posting in the 2+2 thread.
Over the past few years, while IdleMiner was previously advertising on our site they supported several sites which were prohibited. I made them stop supporting those sites in order to allow them to advertise with us. I forget which site(s) these were exactly; however, I am fairly certain that one of those sites was Full Tilt.
The Full Tilt IdleMiner product is still listed on their site but the product has not worked with their software in quite some time. This was per my request at or around the time that Full Tilt added them to their prohibited software list. As much as you do not want to believe it, PokerTracker are the good guys.
The main reason that we initially accepted IdleMiner's advertising was because the sites that they supported did not write hand histories. For instance, at the time, 888/Pacific Poker and Bodog did not write hand histories therefore a handgrabber was required to import your hands into PokerTracker. Since then, 888 has begun writing hand histories making the IdleMiner software obsolete which is one of the many reasons why they ended up selling their software to PTR.
We are an entirely clean company that respects each sites Terms and Conditions and this is well known throughout the poker industry. I am unsure why you on a witchhunt against us but there are no witches here; only clean poker players.
Best regards,
Derek
APerfect10 [PokerTracker Support]
Well his story is changing now.. He went from saying at first that he never checks the sites after they have been approved at the start.. Then he claims many times it must be a recent change..
Keep in mind he also states the ads been up several years.. So how can you say you never check the sites once they are put up only before the ads are up they check it and approve it.. but if you say that you cant claim a must of been a recent change,,, Then in other messages he says Multiple times he wasnt aware.....
Now he signs a diffrent tune above, Knowing some facts that completly couterdicts what he previously says again..
3 diffrent stories now....
Jtodd APCW AND GPWA please expose this fool on your show its a disgrace
below his only public statement about this so far notice doesnt apolgize for any wrong doing.. Even if its not on purpose you can still say im sorry for any problems this may of caused.. Instead he wants to take attack on my which is fine, i guess im doing the same on him,, but i have facts..
he states he proved me wrong yet in the public spot light he has showed no proof otherwise.. Bold words especially when he says he has proved me wrong..
POKERTRACKER PEOPLE ARE A FRAUD....
Thanks to everyone for their support. Interesting enough, he did not post his messages to us which would be even more telling about him although I think his posts in this thread give a good enough clue. Not to mention that his only posts on 2+2 have been in this thread.
For some reason this guy is on a witch hunt that goes no where then he switches to the next witch hunt that fails and so it goes. He has accused us of at least five different things which have all been proven false. Not a single accusation has proven true.
We pride ourself at PokerTracker in being an extremely clean company. We respect each site's terms and conditions. If something is against the site/networks T&C then we do not do it. Furthermore, during innovation, we approve our software with the sites prior to public launch to ensure that we are respecting their rules.
It is quite odd to me that we are one of the cleanest poker software companies out there and this guy tries to go on a witch hunt after us. I guess our software does not do a good enough job teaching about EV because this was a very negative EV play.
Best regards,
Derek Charles, Member
PokerTracker Software, LLC
there is an easy way to spot a lier, look for the story to change when asked spefic questions..
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